factfinder is it the bible Jehovah's word or our leaders that tells us not to fornicate, commit adultery, lie, steal or murder among many more things? Having those in charge is about administration of bible truth's and principles and having a working structure we can grow within. Jesus said he would help when more than two were gathered together in his name. We are told to be in agreement. I am sure not all Jewish-born Christians agreed with the decision that gentiles didn't need to be circumcised but they had to accept that decision by the shepherds for the greater good of the congregation. Our shepherds work hard for us we might not like their decisions or conclusions on prophecy but they ask for Jehovah's guidance and accept they won't get everything right. We are a work in progress and that includes our shepherds too. Like I said I prefer shepherds that do their job rather than ones that just enjoyed the perks that other religions are lumbered with.
Concerned JW
JoinedPosts by Concerned JW
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37
Feeling a bit alienated
by factfinder ini notice mostly everyone at jwn was a "born-in".
i actually chose to become a witness.
i was born and raised jewish but by the time i was 15 i had lost interest in judaism and stopped practicing it.
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The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth - Matt 5:5 anyone?
by punkofnice inon another thread concernedjw used an interesting quote from jesus at matt 5:5 'the meek shall inherit the earth.
' fair comment i'd say.
but jesus didn't say 'paradise' earth.. now i know some of you don't believe in the bible (which i respect), and i'm not after a debate.. what i'm interested to hear is how you would refyte that jesus was not talking about a jw 'paradise earth'.
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Concerned JW
The hebrew word used to translate "earth/land " appears in the hebrew scriptures nearly 2500 times. "'Erets". Like most hebrew words it has multiple means but it's first and formost meaning is as a reference to the whole "earth". Context like with our own languages drives the meaning. If I said "I have a board of wood" or "I am a member of the board" same word different meanings the sentence context shows us which.
psalm 37:29 is a themed scripture of many that David uses that talk of inheriting the earth, possessing it and as such the most correct understanding of "'erets" would be "earth" in that context. Jesus was refering to David words on this common theme.
It is dishonest to translate a word to a different meaning without taking into account the context.
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37
Feeling a bit alienated
by factfinder ini notice mostly everyone at jwn was a "born-in".
i actually chose to become a witness.
i was born and raised jewish but by the time i was 15 i had lost interest in judaism and stopped practicing it.
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Concerned JW
Something I notice when I read the bible is how human people are. Even those that Jehovah picks look at David all those wives and still he wants anpther man's wife. Moses a true friend of Jehovah's but he let the power goto his head eventually. The Apostles arguing over who was the greatest among themselves, Jonah running away from the chance to do ministry, Paul having arguments with Barnabas about another brother.
I am always saddenned when despite the bible showing us that mistakes will happen we put our other brothers and the organisation on impossibly high pedestals and then stumble when they naturally fall. What makes us Jehovah's people is that we follow Jehovah!
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The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth - Matt 5:5 anyone?
by punkofnice inon another thread concernedjw used an interesting quote from jesus at matt 5:5 'the meek shall inherit the earth.
' fair comment i'd say.
but jesus didn't say 'paradise' earth.. now i know some of you don't believe in the bible (which i respect), and i'm not after a debate.. what i'm interested to hear is how you would refyte that jesus was not talking about a jw 'paradise earth'.
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Concerned JW
I'm sorry I should have been clearer. As stated previously paradise/pardis in the bible refers to many specific promises given to mankind from adam onwards regarding the earth as being our inheritance/given to us psalm 115:16 and a restored Pardes/garden/Eden/paradise being promised through various prophets Ezek chapter 34. One non-negotiable fact is the earth has been established permanently psalm 104:5 earth established "to time indefinite even forever" and God will bring to ruin those "ruining the earth".
We then goto the Prophecies in Revelation 21:1-4 we get the promise of a new heaven and earth and the doing away in verse 4 of death, pain, mourning. so these things happen when we get the "new earth". Jesus in Matt 6:10 is showing the fact God's will is to happen on both heaven and earth and we must pray for this to happen on the earth.
("new earth" doesn't mean a literal new earth for many reasons but 2 peter 3 is the clearest way of showing why. Verse 6 talks about an ancient world/earth being destroyed in a deluge flood and verse 7 "by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and being reserved to the day of judgement and of the destruction of ungodly men" Noah's flood is the direct example used and despite many wicked people dying, the Earth itself wasn't destroyed and so this shows it won't be again. It clarifies that it is the ungodly that are destroyed.)
The main point is what is Jehovah's stated will for the earth in the bible?
psalm 37:29 "The righteous themselves shall possess the earth, and they will reside forever upon it."
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religion only to do with belief?
by Curtains inas jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.
are other like religions like this also?
do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.
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Concerned JW
For me the ministry is hard but much needed work. I am always wary of letting myself feel too self-justified simply by the action of being on the ministry. I would then be focussing too much on the act and not enough on the people that need searching out. It is a life-saving work for those who listen to God's word and so I fall into following paul's thought "woe is me" if I didn't do it.
Yes verse 11 is interesting. People thought they were drinking to much wine basically but what happens to someone when they start drinking? Usually they get excited, red-faced, full-on, Their speech increases in volume and they speak loads. The scripture isn't saying they are falling down drunk and thats the point. We know from the earlier scripture people could understand them and in their own language too. This does clarify the effect of the spirit not to stupify their words but to make them more verbal and excited.
You do something different to me when you examine scripture. You seem to have lists for each hypothesis and put scriptures that seemingly fit in each list and then decide which one is more worthy from that.
For me though You have to look at what are the definite points on a subject that define it and fit the rest harmoniously around them. Rather than scoring points under different hypothesis.
The scripture say "tongues cease" that is non-negotiable! The question is only when? The relevence of Paul saying "remains" show it is before perfection and that he felt we needed know they cease also supports this. The relevence of the gifts not showing up throughout the centuries since then really puts the lid on it.
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The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth - Matt 5:5 anyone?
by punkofnice inon another thread concernedjw used an interesting quote from jesus at matt 5:5 'the meek shall inherit the earth.
' fair comment i'd say.
but jesus didn't say 'paradise' earth.. now i know some of you don't believe in the bible (which i respect), and i'm not after a debate.. what i'm interested to hear is how you would refyte that jesus was not talking about a jw 'paradise earth'.
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Concerned JW
Paradise is a descriptive term and yes it does appear in the bible other than those three places in greek scriptures if you go back to original languages and etymology.
Pardes ( a persian word) meaning "garden", is used in the septuagint OT 30 times and when used refered to the Garden of Eden and the conditions in the garden. Exek 28:13 36:35 talks about Eden being restored.
Adam and eve were expelled from pardes/paradise/garden/Eden
The word paradise that we use is derived from Pardes
Paradise also denotes paradise conditions literally Edenic conditions promised.
Heaven has already been been restored how do we know this?
Matt 6:10 your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Rev 21 :3-4 promises an end to death, pain illness
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66
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth - Matt 5:5 anyone?
by punkofnice inon another thread concernedjw used an interesting quote from jesus at matt 5:5 'the meek shall inherit the earth.
' fair comment i'd say.
but jesus didn't say 'paradise' earth.. now i know some of you don't believe in the bible (which i respect), and i'm not after a debate.. what i'm interested to hear is how you would refyte that jesus was not talking about a jw 'paradise earth'.
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Concerned JW
Jesus isn't just quoting a scripture in psalms but a whole promise from God in the hebrew scriptures. It isn't just a stand alone scripture but a reference to the promises God gave to mankind. Right from Genesis were we re told to subdue the earth. to psalms (including the scripture quoted) to the pictorial promises in Isaiah were we build our own houses and eat our own produce in idealic earth conditions. And then the greater belief the Jews had of a Resurrection again into this perfect earth in isaiah's predictions. Jesus knew all this when he quoted that scripture and what it was referencing. The resurrection and the perfect earth is a huge topic in the hebrew scriptures.
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religion only to do with belief?
by Curtains inas jehovahs witnesses we were taught that the truth (belief) unifies every aspect of our lives and is of paramount importance.
are other like religions like this also?
do they emphasize belief to the same extent?.
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Concerned JW
Forgive me Curtains If you felt I was demeaning. I find the Bible very deep and needs a lot study. In many ways you and I agree especially with looking at the greek interlinear for clarification.
Ministry isn't a ritual it is work/a job for witnesses since it is simply viewed as spiritual work for Jehovah and his son Jesus. Work however repetitve has definite goals. For witnesses "first call" (where witnesses knock on doors) is only a small part of the ministry which includes return visits, bible studies with the interested persons, informal witnessing, street witnessing it is all geared towards spreading God's word and seeking interested ones.
Evangelising with the goal of finding interested people has never been classed as a ritual for any religion. I see a lot of Atheists now evangelising for their belief.
The problem with godrulz explanation of "speaking in tongues" is that it is read into the bible and the scriptures that directly contradadict that viewpoint are ignored Acts 2:11. I can see how Pentacostals came to their particular belief on "tongues" by carefully proof texting certain scriptures and taking them out of there biblical context/explanation and using them as stand alone scriptures.
Are "tongues" unintelligible words that only God can understand? no in Acts 2 the only event describing "tongues" shown in action. They are shown to be in the known languages of the people visiting Jerusalem and the people understood what was being said to them. That is the boundary that any understanding about "tongues" has to be set within. You can't then contradict this or ignore it for your own exegesis.
The diversity of "Tongues" understanding and usage within the pentacostal church itself shows a lack of constancy and correctness in their understanding on the subject.
Why would any bible-based religion want to keep the mystery? For me that is a sign of fakery and manipulation. By comparison Witnesses are found to be very blunt and straight forward. Our meetings completely lacking the elaborate rituals and shows, stimulating loud music. all designed to manipulate emotions and senses. I think pentacostals among other charasmatic groups are very much geared towards this type of stimulation for the audience. In that sort of atmosphere people are very susceptable to suggestion.
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New here
by Tuber inhey all.. .
thought i'd introduce myself.. .
first, a disclaimer: i'm an athiest.. .
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Concerned JW
Tuber this is a very negatively biased site against witnesses with information that your relative will realise eventually where you are getting it from because a lot of these are not very original attacks on witnesses. Jehovah's witnesses are a well respected mainstream religion something this site will not make clear. Steve Hassans books are not about main stream religions like Jehovah's witnesses.
You have done some research I see but it is very basic as well.
While "yahweh" is the most modern hebrew version of "Jehovah it would be odd to use "yahweh" in a bible when all the other names are transliterated into English who normally happily using the English "J" instead of "Y". Yeshua is the closest hebrew way of saying the English "Jesus" but we don't use that. So using "Jehovah" which is in the KJV psalm 83:18 and is the established and oldest English transliterated version of YHWH is perfectly fine.
Ancient hebrew was originally a vowelless written language, the consonants serve as sounds for vowels too. People would read YHWH and know how to pronouce it with just them letters. So YHWH is the whole and original name for Jehovah in written hebrew. The addition of vowel points to the original language was much later about 500 years and not always indicative of the original pronouciations. The Jewish superstition on Jehovah's name was not shared by early israelites and Jews who used it nearly 7000 in the hebrew scriptures and in psalms to be sung. The eventual removal and superstition on Jehovah's name was because of a misreading of a commandment in the bible about not blaspheming on God's name which they took to mean not using it at all. Jesus openly condemned this practise saying he had to "make his father's name known" to them.
ASV and NIV are both good translation but they do suffer from adherence to trinitarian theology and directly reflected on how they were translated. NWT is acknowledged to be an accurate translation.
Replacing a name with a title either "lord" or "God" 7000 times really adds to the inaccuracy of modern bibles and in fact led to indirectly to the confusion between Jesus and his Father Jehovah who both hold the title "Lord" which then helped lead towards the false teaching of Trinitarianism.
When someone personally gives you their name to use it shows an intimacy of friendship that the more formal use of titles lacks. Moses was accounted as Jehovah's friend so Jehovah revealed his personal name to him and as his people we also get that honor. When the jews rejected God's name they lost that intimacy of friendship. The bible is very clear Jehovah's people would use his name and come to know him personally and deeply.
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Jehovah's Witnesses are not a CULT ...
by Fatfreek inaccording to 30% of the following definitions.
that leaves 70% that show quite the opposite.
so -- are they a cult?
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Concerned JW
Since the consensus is religion means cult that is a big win or not really.
The next leap is saying "Never mind dangerous branch davidian type cults Steve hassan wasn't talking about them, he actually meant main stream established religions we have a personal gripe with and can read our target religion into his book with a little mental editing when it doesn't fit" not biased at all!
And of course France didn't fall flat on it's face recently on this very subject because they bought into this anti-hype over witnesses and lost.
Interesting old thread.